Feeding and Nutrition :: Spinach Information Needed

[Tertule]

Ok, here goes nothing....

Why is spinach so bad for turtles? I do not want any posts about it causing metabolic bone disease without proof. By proof, I mean I do not want to hear about your turtle cannot metabolize the calcium. Shocking news, humans also cannot metabolize calcium. Unless, both humans and turtles have sufficient vitamin D levels (which is why milk is fortified with vitamin D3) to aid in the synthesis of calcium. Here is some FYI for everyone, the center of our solar system produces enough vitamin D for every living thing on the planet

I have gone to the FDA site and looked up the nutritional information on the spinach that is sold commercially. I saw that it contains the correct amount of phosphates to calcium that a turtle should have to prevent metabolic bone disease, yet everyone freaks out at the mere suggestion of giving a turtle spinach.

Someone please shed some vitamin D on this subject please

[jenaero]

It's been 2 years since we've been back up and running and I have yet to see anyone 'freak out' over spinach. Most people will say there are more nutritious greens to feed your turts and that is my stance as well. I have used it myself as a last resort a few times over the years but in very small amounts.

Since there are so many alternatives (check the 'what to feed' list), I really cannot understand the need for some owners to insist on feeding questionable items.

Go ahead. Feed spinach. Nothing anyone here can do to stop you.

[Tertule]

This topic is not a question of what to feed a turtle.

I am seeking some scientific information on exactly why spinach might be considered a "last resort".

[jenaero]

Well the question leads one to believe that you want to feed it for some reason.

[DavidY]

The proper calcium to phosphate ratio is 2:1 for most reptiles, and you're right, from what I can see on the internet, spinach has that ratio. I remember originally reading about spinach being bad on Bearded Dragon care sheets because of an improper ca/p ratio. Hmmm, otherwise, spinach looks like a very healthy source of vitamins. I'll have to do some more research...

[jenaero]

What I've heard is the oxalic (sp?) acid in spinach is what blocks calcium absorption.

[Tertule]

Here we go people!

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=48

I haved looked all over this site for spinach posts. Much to my surprise, no information in any of the posts. However, I revamped my search and came across an interesting article about oxalates (see in link listed above).

I do not think as turtle owners we should be worried about spinach being a horribly bad food for turtles. But that the density of oxalates in spinach is much higher than any other vegetable measured. And that oxalates bind with calcium to form kidney stones, and we all know how small turtle kidneys are, especially the hatchlings that most people get.

So I would come to the conclusion; Yes spinach is not the best thing for smaller turtles, and should be fed in moderation.

It is not really a metabolic issue, or an absorbtion issue, it is an oxyalic acid issue, please also take a look at this post below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid

[KalinaBallerina]

I found an academic article through a database at school that looks at the effects of oxalate (a.k.a. oxalic acid) and calcium apsorption in humans. (You can read the abstract below). I assume similar things are going on in reptiles. We do tend to avoid spinach with our turts, but, if we are using the same reasoning, we should also avoid feeding rhubarb and beets, which, according to this article, also have very high oxalate content. I belive this is why it is discouraged for people to eat high amounts of spinach when a broken bone is healing because it inhibits new bone deposition due to the calcium being "tied up" by the oxalate.

Hope that helps -
Kalina

Article: Oxalate content of foods and its effect on humans.
Authors: Noonan, S. C.
Savage, G. P.
Source: Asia Pacific Journal of Clinical Nutrition; Mar1999, Vol. 8 Issue 1, p64-74, 11p

Abstract: Oxalic acid and its salts occur as end products of metabolism in a number of plant tissues. When these plants are eaten they may have an adverse effect because oxalates bind calcium and other minerals. While oxalic acid is a normal end product of mammalian metabolism, the consumption of additional oxalic acid may cause stone formation in the urinary tract when the acid is excreted in the urine. Soaking and cooking of foodstuffs high in oxalate will reduce the oxalate content by leaching. The mean daily intake of oxalate in English diets has been calculated to be 70–150 mg, with tea appearing to contribute the greatest proportion of oxalate in these diets; rhubarb, spinach and beet are other common high oxalate-content foods. Vegetarians who consume greater amounts of vegetables will have a higher intake of oxalates, which may reduce calcium availability. This may be an increased risk factor for women, who require greater amounts of calcium in the diet. In humans, diets low in calcium and high in oxalates are not recommended but the occasional consumption of high oxalate foods as part of a nuritious diet does not pose any particular problem. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR]

ISSN: 0964-7058
DOI: 10.1046/j.1440-6047.1999.00038.x
Accession Number: 5278385
Persistent link to this record: http://0-search.ebscohost.com.library.u ... ehost-live
Database Academic Search Premier

[Tertule]

WOW! BEAUTIFUL! FREAKIN' AMAZING!

Thank you Kalina!

That was the type of information I was looking for. Sorry I get a little excited when it comes to academics. Now we can share this information with everyone!

From the abstract, we now know why the English stereotypically have bad teeth?

[KalinaBallerina]

You're welcome! I'm kinda crazy about academic support when making claims too. I'm in nursing school right now; (and even with my previous degree) the emphasis is HEAVILY on "evidence-based practice," meaning we don't just continue to do stuff just because "well, that's how we've always done it!" We look through the literature to see if there have been studies to support our ideas. I am all about having scientific support to back up any claim!

[marisa]

Why not try to find a site that has info geared to turtles? http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/nutrientanalysis.htm

Will feeding spinach to your turtle sometimes as part off the overall diet harm the turtle? Probably not, especially if care is taken to supplement with additional calcium. But not everyone tries to keep balance in the diet, and if a turtle goes crazy over spinach, some feel it's easier to feed a turtle what the turtle will readily eat. This seems to be even more true of newbies, and there are a number who frequent this site. Over time, this is likely to become a health problem.

I don't feed my turtle's spinach, as was mentioned, there are so many other foods that are known to be good for them. And personally, I'd want to try to feed foods that have the best ca/phos ratio, not just those that have an acceptable ratio. If you feel the need to feed your turtles spinach, well, that's up to you.

[megcornell]

There seems to be no point to this topic, the low down is that too much spinach is bad because of its oxalic acid content. Oxalic acid isn't really something to be toyed with. Research is on-going to try and reduce the O.A content in food because such low levels can cause fatal toxicity- while this is grossly unlikely in humans, it your pint-sized turtle the risk is higher. Is it worth risking the accumulation of oxalates in your turtle's system and lowering his ability to use calcium, not in my opinion.

So if there is no benefit to feeding it, only potential risks, I can easily see why it is on the DO NOT FEED list.

[KalinaBallerina]

Meg, I would disagree with your statement that says, "There seems to be no point to this topic," as you yourself stated very nicely the importance of this topic.

[Tertule]

This topic makes me feel like it's the Crusades all over again. Myself nor I think anyone is contemplating feeding their turtle spinach. I just wanted to know exactly why spinach is so unhealthy for reptiles. There is a little more to scientific reasoning than, "Well that's just the way we've being doing it around here because some guy said so."

We are all here to do things that benefit our turtles, not harm them. I would appreciate if any other posts on the topic are not based on the other rubbish divulged on this site and if you do have something to contribute, have some sources to cite.

I mean really, check out my post in the photo gallery, does it look like I am not taking care of my turtles?

[Hoooneylynn]

I would take that gravel out of your tank. If your turts eat it, and they cannot pass it, they could die.