Feeding and Nutrition :: Natural Diet

[reptilegrrl]

The pet food scare has got me worried. As the contamination spreads, I fear that the prepared food I feed my turtles will become unsafe. (My now-deceased cat, Princess, was on a raw diet, and we are transitioning our new cat to a raw diet as well.)

My box turtle eats a home-made raw diet already, only occasionally supplemented with commercial food. He loves it.

Is anyone out there feeding their RES totally on a pellet-free diet? Non-commercial, homemade foods? How's it going?

P.S. I just got a look at the updated diet section on the site and it looks AWESOME.

I have a question about collards- these are recommended as a staple of a box turtle diet and they are the staple "leafy green" that my Rex eats. They are also strongly recommended for other herbivorous reptiles such as green iguanas. So why not for RES? The nutrition page mentions goitrogens, but since they are strongly recommended for other reptiles I am confused.

Edited to add: I just checked Melissa Kaplan's page and she recommends collards for RES too :/

[kmichael55]

I don't know that there is any reason for concern with turtle food, since they already identified the source of the contaminated wheat gluten, Xuzhou Anying Biologic Technology, of China. Although many of the brands were generic wal-mart brands, so possibly a Wal-Mart brand turtle pellet could be affected, although you would think they would say something.

The contaminant is something called melamine. "Melamine is a small, nitrogen-containing molecule that has a number of industrial uses, including as an industrial binding agent, flame retardant and as part of a polymer in the manufacture of cooking utensils and plates. Melamine has additionally been used as a fertilizer in some parts of the world. It is not registered for use as a fertilizer in the United States."

The FDA only lists dog, cat, and one ferret food on their website in their comprehensive list, but mentions elsewhere that livestock and fish feed were also contaminated.

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/petfoodrecall/

Unfortunately my big fat cat Chuck Norris was affected by the bad pet food. He eventually developed very bad kidney problems and had to be put down a few months ago from renal failure. I am so enraged by this and it's very scary finding out how many of the foods we feed our pets with could be poison. My sister has been feeding her cats only tuna since this happened out of fear for them developing the same horrible condition my cat did.

[DavidY]

What is a raw diet for cats?

I feed collard greens to my bearded dragons regularly along with a mix of other greens and veggies. I tried feeding them to my res but they didn't really care for it. They seem to like the thinner lettuces more.

I found this info on this web page http://www.whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=138. One cup of boiled collard greens contains 226.10 mg of calcium and 49.40 mg of phosphorus. That's more than a 4:1 ratio of calcium to phosphorus. That's an excellent ratio especially if you feed live foods a lot since those are usually all phosphorus and little to no calcium.

From what I understand of goitrogens, they can suppress proper thyroid function (which can lead to goiter). Vegetables that fall into this category include Broccoli, Cauliflower, Brussel Sprouts, Cabbage, Mustard, Kale, Turnips, Rape seed (Canola Oil), Soy, Pine nuts, Millet and Peanuts. Collard Greens are in the same family as Mustard Greens and Kale. Perhaps the Collards have more of this negative effect than Kale (see chart in the Nutrition section on this site). I hope Steve can jump in on this. But it seems to me that a few Collards every now and then would be okay, that is if your turtles will eat it.

[scripta_elegans]

The reason for feeding collards sparingly is this. Collards and other plants from the Brassica group may also inhibit iodine absorption, resulting in goiters. Though that is not completely proven, they are considered to be acceptable in small amounts. Adding kelp, which is rich in iodine, is believed to counteract any potential effects. I think it's a better safe than sorry type thing.

[reptilegrrl]

K, you're behind the times: more contaminants have been found. A local lab reported to the FDA that they found acetaminophen in pet food, but they can't release the brand name due to privacy reasons. Acetaminophen is the active ingredient in Tylenol, and is is poisonous to cats and can be so to dogs.

The reason I am concerned is that we, the laymen, really don't know much about the ingredients in pet foods, where they are sourced, etc. And the problem has gotten bigger and bigger... it started with wheat gluten then spread to corn gluten, and what was first declared rat poison was found to be melamine, and now acetaminophen has been found too. And with the melamine scare, the manufacturers knew there was a problem MONTHS before they reported it.

So it stands to reason that there could be more problems out there that we don't know about, and that the problems could spread.

I am so sorry about your loss. My kitty died of cancer in October and we still miss her terribly.

Your sister might want to look into a raw food diet for her cat. Tuna fish alone is not a healthy diet; her cat is bound to get sick.

I don't know that there is any reason for concern with turtle food, since they already identified the source of the contaminated wheat gluten, Xuzhou Anying Biologic Technology, of China. Although many of the brands were generic wal-mart brands, so possibly a Wal-Mart brand turtle pellet could be affected, although you would think they would say something.

The contaminant is something called melamine. "Melamine is a small, nitrogen-containing molecule that has a number of industrial uses, including as an industrial binding agent, flame retardant and as part of a polymer in the manufacture of cooking utensils and plates. Melamine has additionally been used as a fertilizer in some parts of the world. It is not registered for use as a fertilizer in the United States."

The FDA only lists dog, cat, and one ferret food on their website in their comprehensive list, but mentions elsewhere that livestock and fish feed were also contaminated.

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/petfoodrecall/

Unfortunately my big fat cat Chuck Norris was affected by the bad pet food. He eventually developed very bad kidney problems and had to be put down a few months ago from renal failure. I am so enraged by this and it's very scary finding out how many of the foods we feed our pets with could be poison. My sister has been feeding her cats only tuna since this happened out of fear for them developing the same horrible condition my cat did.

[DavidY]

Unfortunately my big fat cat Chuck Norris was affected by the bad pet food. He eventually developed very bad kidney problems and had to be put down a few months ago from renal failure. I am so enraged by this and it's very scary finding out how many of the foods we feed our pets with could be poison. My sister has been feeding her cats only tuna since this happened out of fear for them developing the same horrible condition my cat did.

That's really sad. I'm sorry to hear that. It is pretty scary to think how easily it is for this kind of thing to happen.

[reptilegrrl]

What is a raw diet for cats?

A raw diet for cats is a diet that approximates their natural diet- raw whole prey items, including bones and organs. Some diets include a small amount of vegetables. Most commercial cat food is made with high quantities of grain, which is NOT a natural food for cats.

We use the Bravo diet, which is a prepared raw diet. We supplement it with extra organ meats and a complete cat vitamin. Many people make their own diets, but I am disabled and physically, that is more work than I can take on. So we purchase our cat food.

I did a LOT of research before deciding to switch our cat to raw. Switching really improved her health and well-being. Before going raw, she had diarrhea for about 9 months straight. It would go away when she was on anti-inflammatory medicines, but return as soon as she was off them. Once she went raw, the diarrhea disappeared. Her coat became more shiny and healthy, she had NO odor, her stools were almost odorless also. Her teeth were clean and healthy. Her energy level was higher, she lost the bloat she had gained.

So we are switching our new cat to raw as well. Our new cat was seriously addicted to the sugary dry food they had her on at the rescue center (HIll's Science Diet) so we had to wean her off of that, and slowly we are moving her to the raw food.

I know that some people will want to comment and criticize this choice. All I can say is this: I am highly, highly intelligent, I made this decision after more than a year of research, and I am confident that it was the best choice for my cat. I've red all the criticisms and they don't hold much water with me, so don't waste your typing hands

Regarding the collards: you are right, they have an excellent Calcium: phosphorus ratio, which is why they are routinely recommended for reptiles. I've never heard of anyone having any kind of goitrogen problem with collards in regard to reptiles.

[reptilegrrl]

The reason for feeding collards sparingly is this. Collards and other plants from the Brassica group may also inhibit iodine absorption, resulting in goiters. Though that is not completely proven, they are considered to be acceptable in small amounts. Adding kelp, which is rich in iodine, is believed to counteract any potential effects. I think it's a better safe than sorry type thing.

Scripta, as I said in my original post (did you read it?), I am aware that the rationale is that of goitrogenic effects. However, collard greens are routinely recommended as a great green for reptiles, so I am wondering why this problem is only, to my knowledge, highlighted here on RES.com

[reptilegrrl]

That's really sad. I'm sorry to hear that. It is pretty scary to think how easily it is for this kind of thing to happen.

I agree, David, it is just terrifying to me.

[kmichael55]

Your sister might want to look into a raw food diet for her cat. Tuna fish alone is not a healthy diet; her cat is bound to get sick.

Yes, she knows that it's bad but is just too scared to feed pet food. I will tell her about the raw food diet, I don't know if she would be able to handle that though.

I don't want to sound stupid, but is it literally whole dead animals? fur and all? or just parts from the prey items?


Wow I'm really surprised to hear how "behind the times" I really am. I had no idea it was still spreading to other foods with other contaminants, you just don't hear about it on the news anymore.

Thank you for your sympathy David and reptilegrrl.

I believe you are going the right way with this raw food diet though reptilegrrl, I would hope more people would research this as an alternative, it's so sad to hear about innocent animals dying because of the pet food industry's failures.

[kmichael55]

just looked up the Bravo diet, sorry I thought you were literally catching mice for her and feeding them whole. It does sound like a really good idea and makes sense, especially considering how much grain is a in a natural diet as compared to in the pet foods.

[DavidY]

I don't see why anyone would argue against a fresh natural diet for any animal or human. I would love to have my own farm where I grew and raised all my own food. Total self sufficiency has always been a dream of mine (back in high school, me and a buddy of mine were seriously thinking about taking off for Vermont and joining a commune...then I went to college instead ). That sounds very interesting, but even with that kind of diet you need to know where your raw materials are coming from. If any prey item that you include in your mixture was fed on a toxic diet it will eventually effect the consumer. Wow, I can see how that could be really time consuming to make your own diets. Grow your own alfalfa/grain/etc, raise your own mice/chickens/etc on the homegrown feed... It would be ideal though.

[marisa]

I've been concerned about contamination in pet/turtle food for a while for and have been surprised that no one brought it up until now. (This was brought up in at lest one other forum.) The orginial problem was identified as melamine in wheat gluten. But, I'll bet that there are other contaminants as well.

At first it was wheat gluten from China, but in last week's "Hartford Courant" there was an easy-to-miss article about the same chemical being used in animal feed ingredients made by a U.S. company. The article states: "The announcement by the Food and Drug Administration was the first indication that a U.S. company had used melamine in animal feed. Angency officials said that melamine and related compounds were used to bind feed for cattle, sheep and goats, or fish and shrimp. Previously, the problem of melamine in animal feed was thought to be contained to China, where it was added to wheat gluten."

Wheat gluten is a filler in so many turtle pellets, even the more reputable ones. If fish and or shrimp are fed food containing melamine and turtle pellets contain fish and/or shrimp meal, it's another possible way for exposure to the chemical to occur. I'm not trying to scare anyone. I don't think it's a matter of food becoming unsafe, though, I'm wondering how long it's been going on...

I recently had an interesting conversation with a vet who was much more negative than positive on the use of pellets as the main source (or large percentage) of the diet.

As for the collards, they've never been on my own "caution" list. I know what my turtles eat, and have never seen feeding them collards (more than has been recommended here) as being a problem.

kstewart55, an all-tuna diet is really bad for your cat. One of my friends had her cat on the same diet because she said the cat "liked" it. Eventually, the cat got kidney problems big time.

[reptilegrrl]

Hey Kate, here's a link to the acetaminophen thing: http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?secti ... id=5366430

Some people do feed their cats and dogs whole prey items, fur and all. I don't; I confess that I buy a premade raw diet, made of proper proportions of muscle meat, organs, and bone, and then shaped into patties.

The whole prey method seems very messy to me, and space-intensive, plus it could create confusion for my cat, as we have small rodent pets as well. She is not allowed to eat our other pets, and our new cat is not very smart, so I am not sure she could make the distinction between her prey and our pets.

I do feed my snake whole prey, though; she eats whole rats (the other, other white meat.) And I feed my turtles some whole prey items... mostly snails and worms.

[reptilegrrl]

David, it's long been a dream of mine as well. I am really a city person, though, so I don't think I could produce all my own food, but I would certainly like to try. I do have my own organic garden and that's where the collards came from for my turtles this year. Right now I have swiss chard, chives, basil, thyme, kale, and tomatoes growing. It's a little too hot for anything else.

My vet is actually very opposed to raw feeding cats and dogs, but for now we have just agreed to disagree. We butt heads sometimes

Toxic diets for prey was a big problem in the late 90s, when many pet snakes began dying after eating prey rodents that were fed cheap dog food (by unscrupulous rodent breeders) instead of grains. The red dye in the cheap dog food would build up in the prey's body, and then it was found to build up in the snake's body. Necropsies showed the livers of the snakes were bright red with the dye.

A lot of people lost their beloved snakes in that die-off and I still worry about it.

I don't see why anyone would argue against a fresh natural diet for any animal or human. I would love to have my own farm where I grew and raised all my own food. Total self sufficiency has always been a dream of mine (back in high school, me and a buddy of mine were seriously thinking about taking off for Vermont and joining a commune...then I went to college instead ). That sounds very interesting, but even with that kind of diet you need to know where your raw materials are coming from. If any prey item that you include in your mixture was fed on a toxic diet it will eventually effect the consumer. Wow, I can see how that could be really time consuming to make your own diets. Grow your own alfalfa/grain/etc, raise your own mice/chickens/etc on the homegrown feed... It would be ideal though.