General Care Discussion :: Nesting

[victoria&mabel]

Hi! Last year was the first year that Mabel (15 years old) laid eggs. We truly had no idea what we were doing, as we had never experienced it before, but after 2 separate clutches, she was good to go for the year. I suspect the reason she had never laid before was that she was always kept away from windows but was given one last year. Because she is still kept near a window and can now tell when seasons are changing, I'm suspecting that she will start to lay every year now. We have no problem with this and will help her get through it regardless.

Here is my problem: it is the end of March and we live in Canada. The temperatures outside are still low and the ground is still frozen. I'm not comfortable letting her attempt to lay outside right now because of that. She HATED the nesting boxes that we tried (3 different ones with different soils, locations, etc). She wanted to lay in our garden and I'm assuming that's because she could get them so deep. She laid her first clutch probably 2-3 feet down. I haven't noticed the same signals as I have last year, but this morning she was attempting an escape out of her tank, which was our main indicator last year. Is there a chance that she could be ready to lay eggs this early? I know they can lay spring-fall, but I was under the impression that this is too early. I will take any advice on how to help her, but I'm nervous about taking her outside.

Thanks!

[steve]

Yes, since our RES are captive, they can potentially lay then at any time. I would try the nesting box again... if she can't lay them, hopefully she will expel them in her tank.

[victoria&mabel]

Thanks! I will try that again. I had spent the weekend preparing, I had to drive 3 hours to get soil, as it's not yet readily available in my area.

Now that we have it, I'm going to heat my basement to an appropriate temperature and set up a nesting box again. I'm thinking of bringing some soil in from her previous nesting spot, is that a good idea?

Her vet has recently moved to a new province, so I've been calling new vets to have someone on standby if she does not expel them. Any ideas on how to get her to expel them sooner?

I appreciate the help. I'm sure we'll make out fine but I'm worried about egg binding

[steve]

IMO, the two main things for getting them to nest indoors is to immediately put her in the tub when she is showing signs of wanting to get out of the tank. Next would to be sure there is enough dirt and it is deep enough, because she will stop if she thinks its to shallow. Having her in there when she doesn't want to be only creates stress and a mess.

As for getting her to naturally expel/lay them sooner, it is a mystery. There was someone here who let their turtle roam around and she would lay her eggs in a slipper. Medically, others usually resort to have them injected with oxytocin to promote a nesting response.

[victoria&mabel]

Ah okay, I will try that this week. She seems to want to start in the morning, but I work in the mornings. I tried her in the tub overnight last night and there was no sign of digging at all, she did seem a little nervous when I put her back in her tank this morning. I may skip the nesting box overnight tonight, as my partner is home during the day for the rest of the week so he can have her in the nesting box during the day to see if that helps. Thanks for that suggestion!

My sister has access to oxytocin and actually did offer me some, but I do not want to resort to that until I consult with a vet. My fingers are crossed that she gets them out this week. My partner had more luck last time, so I am hoping he will again this time haha.

[steve]

As far as I know, the medication is injected and obviously the vet would know how much to administer. Her wanting to nest is very instinctual, so having her in the box when she doesn't want to be just creates a negative situation.

[victoria&mabel]

At what point do you think I should contact her vet? I've been monitoring for symptoms of egg binding, but I'm not really sure how long they take to develop, i.e. slowly or all at once? I absolutely do not want to lose her to something as simple as eggs, so I'd like to be ahead of the game, but would also like to her do it as naturally as possible!

[steve]

if she can't nest them, then she might expel them in the water down the line. As for how long it takes, it can vary wildly. Have you felt for eggs?

[victoria&mabel]

I have not felt for eggs. I am nervous to, as I know if I am not gentle enough they can rupture. She has an appointment with the vet next week.

She ripped a nail off last night in her tank, probably trying to escape or dig, and hooked it on her filter. I am hoping that it does not hurt her ability to dig, as it was a nail on her back foot. I dry docked her for a few hours, and the bleeding had stopped within a few minutes. I used my "turtle first aid kit" from the last time she was at the vet, as she had scrapped her foot which bled, so a similar situation. I changed her water to make sure it was extra clean to avoid infection, I'll have to keep treating her nail for a few days, and hopefully, when that's not being treated, she can get in her nesting box and lay, or we'll see what her vet says next week. My partner had her in her nesting box today and said that he found two weird objects in the box, but he isn't sure what they are and said they may just be clumps of dirt lol. I will have to see when I get home.

[steve]

You would have to be very rough to break an egg that has not been laid. Regardless, it does sound like the turtle is gravid. Hopefully she will lay them soon!

[victoria&mabel]

Update: Mabel went to the vet and has 5 eggs we have to get out.

The nail that she had broken has since come off and poses no threat at this point. Right before her vet visit, she cut her head and is being treated for that with injected antibiotics every three days and flamazine cream every day. The vet also sent us home with oxytocin, but I am weary to use it as I know it can make laying harder for her. She still has no interest in her nesting box. We had two unusually warm days where she was able to get outside and she had started some practice holes but no luck yet. We aren't going to have the weather we need again until the weekend.

Any experience with giving oxytocin? I'm wondering what to expect.

Last year we did have to get her outside a few times for a few weeks before she laid, and I'm thinking this will be the same thing. I'd like to trust her to get them out when she needs to now that there are some opportunities for her to get outside (where she prefers to lay); however, I'm still nervous about egg binding. Can the additional stress from her head injury & treatment for that be causing her to hold her eggs? Should I look to induce her or trust that if she needed them out she would have dug a full hole the other day?
Thanks!

[steve]

No experience with oxytocin, but as long as she is willing to try to lay naturally, I would go with that. From previous experience, you should have an idea of the type of ground she prefers and you should look for a space for like that. The injury to her head and nail shouldn't effect her wanting to nest... its a very instinctual process. If she stops digging, then either something got in the way or the ground was too dry or too wet.

[victoria&mabel]

Hi again, here is another update:

There are still no eggs, but also no sign of egg binding. We're back and forth between her treatment for her head & antibiotics (not as often anymore) and getting her outside or in her nesting box. She has made little to no effort to dig, which I'm not sure if it's her saying she isn't ready yet, or that we have no suitable areas in our yard anymore. We have dogs around now and I'm worried their scent could be bothering her.

We have a trail nearby that has a wooded area with soft ground. Would it be worth trying her there? I don't really know what else to do for her. We let her have full run of our yard & sometimes our neighbours yards and she hasn't tried to lay. It is the same ground that was there before, but she seems much less interested in it now.

[steve]

Have you used the oxytocin? If the period for when they want to do it naturally is over, then the best you can hope for is for her to expel them in the water. She might eat them, so you might miss it if it happens. I do not know what oxytocin does after this period, meaning if it would encourage her now.

[victoria&mabel]

I haven't. I was worried about the outcome when we are so far from the vet, they couldn't tell me for sure that it would not cause any complications.

I was recently talking to a friend who worked at a wildlife rehab and she was telling me that the red-eared sliders at the rehab would start showing signs of having eggs and they would just leave them be and xray them at the end of the summer to check for retained eggs, otherwise, there was no fuss made.

I won't be able to do the same, as I'll always be worried about Mabel, but I think I just have to let her do her thing. I have made an appointment for another xray to make sure that there are no issues.