General Care Discussion :: Shell condition

[Scribble]

So as you may know my turtle has some problems with her shell, I thought that during the summer her shell would improve however I was not able to get her outside much to catch the sun. Anyway I am hoping that you can take a look and tell me how she has progressed. I am most concerned about these pits you see in her shell, as well as these bright spots that really show only when submerged and those milky patches on her scutes.

I consulted with a vet. They told me to do a potassium permanganate treatment (5 seconds in the water, 5 outside), AD3 drops in the water as well as her eyes (?) and mouth and have Omega 6 mixed in her food as well as calcium. The vet also said that her shell was ok but that more frequent brushing was required and that the white bright spots were retained scutes.

I've put on some images for you to see https://imgur.com/a/lXsQatx

[steve]

Most of the white stuff is from fungus and it can make other shell issues worse. The yellowish ones (the first one in the gallery) around the marginals might be an issue. It's hard to know what causes those, but those are the areas I would keep an eye on.

[Scribble]

So what do I do?

Is the vet (not a herp vet) suggested treatment any good (or should I continue with the iodine treatment)?

I should mention that those white stuff are not fuzzy or soft to the touch the way you would expect a fungus to be. In fact when you zoom on the photo like here https://i.imgur.com/jHq1EkS.jpeg It almost looks like shed scutes.

What do you think of her plastron https://i.imgur.com/G5Zzz9r.jpeg does it look good?

Any other suggestions, do you need additional photos?

[steve]

Shell fungus wouldn't be soft. It doesn't grow atop it, it infects it. Shedding and Silver Sulfadiazine Cream are the best treatments. Once the shell clears up, you can better examine the next steps.

I don't know about what the vet prescribed, thats for you to decide if you want to try.

[Scribble]

Right,
I was more asking for your opinion in using Iodine/Peroxide vs Potassium Permanganate for fungal infections treatment, what do you prefer?

[steve]

I don't think iodine is very effective against shell fungus. Peroxide might be, against certain types of fungus. Potassium Permanganate won't likely do anything, maybe the turtle can get some nutrients from that?

[Scribble]

Hmmm, it says on wikipedia that it is used for fungal infections in people.
That said I will continue using Sulfadiazine as well as what was prescribed by the vet.

I took some new photos of her shell in the front near where the white patch on her shell is https://imgur.com/a/Dn1srmb
It almost looks like it's a contiguous part of the area under her shell

[steve]

There are lots of medications that can be used to treat fungus. However it is rather difficult to treat it on turtles as we don't know what strains are affecting them.

The area in the photo is usually more yellowish in appearance. I'm not sure what could be the cause.

[Scribble]

So I've been applying potassium permanganate baths (5 seconds in the water, 5 outside of it) and then lathering her with Silver Sulfadiazine (although she wouldn't dry dock for a while and would instead dive in the water) for about a week.

However the white spots which until now looked muted have become more pronounced, the white patch at the margins has turned milky white, and the scute under it has turned pale.

Before: https://i.imgur.com/y3Jnzjr.jpg
After: https://i.imgur.com/g9aMLVy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7y73pmx.jpg

The most critical part (in the lower right) looks similar to how it was before. The only thing I noticed is that it is black and the texture is smooth to the touch.
https://i.imgur.com/MeimvgO.jpg

The white patches were noticeable before only after the turtle was submerged
https://i.imgur.com/uE6Gtqc.jpg

My theory is that the potassium permanganate killed one strain of the fungus and so another strain began to dominate instead. However, I am not really knowledgeable in
this topic so I wouldn't know if that is a thing that can happen among funguses.

My reaction so far has been to wash her shell thoroughly using a toothbrush and a very mild soap -In doing so, one of the patches (the one in the middle), reddened underneath, I wonder if there's some sort of inflammation going on, thankfully it quickly went to normal- https://i.imgur.com/MeimvgO.jpg . Then after drying her I applied a concoction of Neosporin, Clotrimazole, Betametazone and Gentamicin and Silver Sulfadiazine to her shell, particularly to the critical spots and then dry docked her for a couple of hours under a heat lamp and left her in a shallow enclosure with only a little water on one side to sleep in.

I reckon I will be applying this cream and the potassium permanganate baths interchangeably every 2 days, as well as probably rinsing her with iodine. I shall also be looking for several vet opinions (There aren't any herp vets where I live, so I want to see if there will be a consensus)
I will also be changing her water more frequently while this infection lasts and am going to change the filter to a more powerful one.

On the vet's suggestion, in addition to the potassium permanganate solution I also added Omega 6 and 3 to her food, AD3 drops and Calcium, I am also thinking of buying a UV lamp.

Can you give me opinions on the condition of her shell?
What else do you think I should do, any other suggestions?

Before: https://imgur.com/a/lXsQatx
Currently: https://imgur.com/a/jFU7HSL

[steve]

I think most of the shell fungus is gone, still a bit some on the plastron. Those deeper white areas are probably not fungus as it doesn't really penetrate the shell that way. My guess is that there is some sort of dietary deficiency or infection. I'm not familiar with the treatments you suggested, but those likely would have little impact on an internal issue. I would try to get her some outdoor time and some sun at her choosing (windows filter out UVB).

[Scribble]

Alright, the previous post's formatting was a bit off but it should be good now.
I can get her in the sun, but the problem is that the temperatures have fallen to about 20C (68F), if it isn't too cold for her I can let her bask.

What would you recommend if it really was an infection?
Just more basking time or is this a thing for a vet?

[steve]

68F is fine, and in the Sun the light it should be warmer than air temps. If it's too cool or breezy, you would know/feel it. The white parts look larger/brighter than the before pics. Either it was like that and the recent treatment made it more visable, or it's spreading. IMO, you need to see a vet. X-rays might also determine the shell integrity and might be helpful in diagnosing the issues.

[Scribble]

Hey,

I've been treating the patches and thankfully they've somewhat receded, however a couple of days ago I found that the underside on one of her scutes where her leg is, is reddened.
I've looked everywhere but that's the only part that has this pink colour to it. There seems to be a little notch on the scute when you look at it from the top as well, but if this is recent I couldn't tell you. I don't know how she would have been able to chip it in her current tank either.

https://imgur.com/a/cXjSqqc

[steve]

You'll want to keep a close eye on it as it could be an internal infection. Any change in texture or if it becomes redder would require immediate attention from a vet. Try to document what goes on every day. Does she bump into the tank and it's thinks a lot?