Urgent Care

Hey guys,

I've had Norbert - my first turtle - since Dec. 14. He's disabled and only has two usable legs (the forelimbs). He was pretty active when we first adopted him, and over the past week or two has slowed down considerably. He was initially pretty shy but he no longer seems frightened of us. He saw a reptile vet on Dec. 26, and I mentioned at the time that he was sleeping a lot, but she didn't seem overly concerned - at the time he had not eaten anything since we got him (almost two weeks). She was awesome, gave him a thorough exam, and I wish we could see her again, but I found Norbert when visiting family over two hours away, and we are in a different location now. She said I could call her for further advice, but she didn't even charge me for the initial exam, so if he needs to see a vet I should probably just find someone here.

My concerns are:

He's sleeping a lot. All night and the vast majority of the day. He seems to have a little trouble opening his eyes - they are almost always closed, even if I enter the room and make some noise. If I move his lights (and sometimes if I adjust them) he opens them. Sometimes he covers an eye with his arm, or if he wants to open them, slides his arm over the eye to open it. He's not leaving the water frequently, and hasn't basked in about a week. I am worried this is due to my raising his water temp.

His head bobs sometimes, but there are no bubbles, no gasping, etc. like I'd expect from a respiratory infection.

After doing some research on the forum, I thought the closed-eye issue might be related to too much UVB. I turned off his UVB light the past two days, but I haven't noticed a difference. He's still very sleepy.

When I remove him from his tank and put him in the separate feeding container, for about 1-2 hours at a time in the late afternoon/early evening, he is alert and keeps his eyes open most of the time he's in the separate container.

We are still struggling with food - he eats a tiny bit, but not enough. He eats a little something, like several bloodworms or a gammarus or two, every day. He has not expressed much interest in the ReptoMin or ZooMed hatchling formula. I plan to pick up some tuna to soak the pellets. He's also on an appetite stimulant (Zilla), which I squeeze into his feeding container and mix with the water. I can't do the live food thing - I'm too squeamish.

Any idea what is going on here? Do we need to see a herp vet?

Thanks for any advice you can offer!

Questionnaire:
How big is your turtle? About 1".
How long have you had it? Since Dec. 14.

What is the water temperature? Thermometer reads 75-78 at night, 78-82 during the day.
Did you use a thermometer? Yes.
Are you using a water heater? No, there is not enough water for a submersible heater. We are using a heating lamp positioned over the basking area and water.
How much water is in there? A very small amount, about 1/2", because we are not confident Norbert can swim based on his disability.
Are you using a water conditioner? Yes, Fluker's dechlorinator and Fluker's EcoClean, only because we do not have enough water in the tank for a filter. I only use a drop of each, and change the water every 3 days.
Are you using any filtration? No, there is not enough water in the tank to use one.

What is the basking temperature? Air reads about 85 at night, 90-91 during the day.
Is there a basking light? Yes. All Living Things 100W Neodymium basking bulb during the day, All Living Things 75W Infrared bulb at night.
Is there a basking platform that is easy to climb on? Yes, ExoTerra Turtle Bank (small size).
What kind is it or what is it made out of? ExoTerra Turtle Bank, resin.
Is there a UVB light? Yes, 13W ExoTerra ReptiGlo 5.0.

What have you been trying to feed it? ReptoMin Baby, ZooMed Aquatic Hatchling formula, bloodworms, ReptoTreat gammarus.
When was the last time your turtle ate? Yesterday - he ate one gammarus.

How big is the tank/pond/enclosure? 10 gallons.
Is the tank near a window? No.
Is the tank in a room with a lot of activity? No, though when I am home I check on him frequently.

Have you read the Basic Care section? Yes.
Have you searched the forums for similar situations? Yes.

Is there any other unusual activity/symptoms? All described above.

We have an appointment with a new reptile vet tomorrow at 1 pm. Will update when I know more about his condition.

I think a vet visit will be a very good idea. You can try some cod liver oil on his eyes but I think his not eating well is taking it's toll on him.

You can also try soaking him in diluted pedialyte and leave in some pellet crumbs, hopefully he'll drink some of it.

Can you use filtered water instead of the dechlorinator and EcoClean?

He seems worse tonight, weak and tired. I can't believe I waited this long to address this. I called the emergency vet and discussed our options with her, but because he is so small, our treatment options are very limited. Like the first vet we saw, she is concerned that due to his external congenital deformities that he may be deformed inside as well and that is hurting him, and there may be nothing that can be done to help him. When we see her tomorrow she plans to give him some fluids and see if she can do some bloodwork. She told me not to feel too badly, but that's not helping.

Please send positive thoughts for Norbs. I am heartbroken.

Steve, I can filter water from the refrigerator and let it warm up and use that. Good idea, thanks.

I asked the vet about the Pedialyte, and she said it may help if it is an electrolyte issue, but if he is congenitally deformed internally it may hurt him, and if he can't urinate/defecate then the food is just fermenting inside his little body, giving him sepsis

This is so terrible.

The vet is correct, though I'm hoping he's just stressed that's causing his lack of appetite. There really is nothing that can be done if there are internal deformities but you've given him a fighting chance. Norbert has lots of positive thoughts coming his way.

Back from vet! Overall, the visit was relatively positive. Unfortunately, there are still unknowns. He is too small to get decent resolution on a CT, therefore we do not know what his internal anatomy looks like and he may have significant issues related to this.

I have a carnivore/omnivore question that I will ask in the general care, as well as a tank size question.

Here is what my paperwork from the vet states:

Hindlimb congenital abnormalities include deformed rear legs, lack of tail, and caudal shell growth stunting. Norbert is very alert and active, which is a good sign of his health. However, the presence of the congenital abnormalities in his caudal half could be the tip of the iceberg as far as internal abnormalities go. As long as he is eating well, and has good nervous function of his cloaca and bladder, it's possible he can live a long and happy life. At this point it is still unsure how Norbert will do over the long term. Providing him with appropriate care and nutrition will increase his chances and we can monitor his progress as time goes on and intervene medically as necessary.

Attitude: BAR
Body condition: 2/5
Weight: 8.07 grams
Hydration: within normal limits
Membrane color: pink
Respiratory character: within normal limits

Norbert was bright, alert, and active. His cranial 2/3 of his body was normal and appropriate while his caudal 1/3 was abnormal. There were several congenital abnormalities noted including deformed rear legs, lack of tail, and a stunted shell. A cloaca was present and feces were found in the cloaca via cloacal swabbing, suggesting he has an intact gastrointestinal tract, making complete obstruction less likely. He showed no obvious, outward signs of systemic illness, or nutritional deficiency.

You are currently doing a wonderful job caring for Norbert. As discussed, it would be great to get him to have some time outside in the sun. Make sure that while outside he is protected from possible predators by a cover that allows sunlight through. Turning down the 100W bulb using the dimmer, or switching to the 60W bulb may increase his basking behavior inside. Again, what is most important is to have a gradient of temperature in the cage so that Norbert can regulate his body temperature as he needs. You can try feeding him twice daily now, while he is growing and recovering. It is possible there is a time of day he prefers feeding. Filtered water from the refrigerator still has some chlorine in it - it is always safest to decholrinate Norbert's water. We believe he will be able to swim successfully - we recommend having a few supervised swimming sessions before leaving him alone in a tank deep enough for swimming. If Norbert begins to show outward signs of illness, he may benefit from antibiotic therapy.

Norbert was an excellent patient! Thank you for entrusting us with his care. We would like to see Norbert back in a week to reevaluate his activity level and see how he is doing and adjusting to the changes made at home.

Sounds like the vet was very thorough, thank you for the update. These are incredible animals, no wonder we quickly get attached to them.

Urgent Care :: Norbert is ill? Sleeping too much... I'm very worried.

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