Urgent Care :: We saved our baby RES from severe RI, BUT...

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:01 pm   We saved our baby RES from severe RI, BUT...

Hi all,

We haven't posted about this yet because the story has just had too many ups and downs, and been emotional enough as it is without writing about it. But now things seem to have stalled and we could use some suggestions. The short version is that our baby RES (just under 1") got severe RI several weeks ago. Luckily we had amoxicillin on hand and were able to save her in the nick of time. Here in Amman there aren't any vets to speak of with aquatic turtle experience (RES are new here, and not native), but the one vet we did consult said she was too small for a shot. So in the few weeks since then she's been through three different oral antibiotics (luckily they are cheap and non-prescription here) and been on the edge of death a couple of times -- meaning with head down on her rock and hardly able to move. Finally ciprofloxacin (Baytril)--in large human-sized doses--kicked the worst of it, and she's been stable for a while now. She's active, she eats, she basks, and doesn't mouth breathe. BUT she still coughs up mucus from her mouth and can't submerge at all, only float, usually level but sometimes tilted to one side or the other. She opens her mouth in the water often and spits out mucus and bubbles, especially right after her medicine, which we're still giving her.

It's been more than a week without much change now, and we sort of sensed a downturn coming if we didn't do something different, since that's been the pattern. Knowing the problem was fluid in her lungs, we tried holding her tilted downward for a minute and pumping her legs, and sure enough she started coughing up drop after drop of water. Turns out if you look closely, whenever she blows bubbles she's also letting water flow into her mouth. So after some research we decided to try dry tanking her (not quite--we left her a little water (82 deg), but not enough to submerge her head and drink). Apparently some owners say dry tanking doesn't help with RI, and maybe they're right, but there's really no other way to prevent her swallowing water--assuming that's a problem and not something that helps her. After an initial panic in the "dry" tank, she settled down in a spot with about 88 deg air temp and just sat and slept a little, keeping her mouth shut. Later we gave her a 1 hour soak and she ate some, took her medicine, then went back to the dry tank without complaint. Now she pumps her throat as if trying to clear mucus, but doesn't open her mouth.

That's where it stands, but we really don't know where to go from here, especially if she has another relapse. Will keeping her dry help? Is the main problem still the last, indestructible bacteria, or are the oral antibiotics part of the problem now by getting into her lungs? I notice she tends to gape right after taking medicine (by eyedropper), which I assume means she's inhaling some of it. This has been a long fight, and very, very stressful, but we're not about to give up. In the worst case (second worst, really), we'll just try to keep her on "life support" like this as long as it takes, until she's big enough to try injections. But we'd obviously prefer to just clear it up. SO... any advice?--preferably from those who've had experience with pneumonia, inability to submerge, and dry-tanking. No need to review the basics -- we know all the general care and "sick turtle" tips, especially after having exhausted Google on the subject lately.

Thanks in advance.
diyabolo
 
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Post Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:45 pm   

I don't have any advice since I've not dealt with any illness yet but I want to wish your turtle a full recovery. I hope she gets well soon. Sounds like you are doing an awesome job, just hang in there. *hugs*
~~~Sonja~~~
sonyj
 
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Post Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:02 pm   

I can't help either other than to commend you for your efforts. There are a number of experienced users on the forum that will be able to help with though.. just keep checking in :)
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cam722
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Post Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:30 am   Ri RES

An RES in Amman Jordan, wow. Im so impressed with your fight to keep the little guy alive. Im a beginner with RES myself and mine are luckily healthy at the moment. I don't suppose you have access to a herpatologist (a reptile vetenarian). Im gonna research about RI in RES tonight. Id be glad to send you any medications youll need for the little guy...
staman
 
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Post Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:01 pm   

I get alot of experience working with turtles similar to yours. The best advice I can give is to keep trying and never let your hopes down. Sounds a bit impossible but all we can do is give the turt the medications and just hope.
My female res Huna had severe pneumonia leading to respiratory infection three years ago, and now is a big 7inch healthy turt. She was in the same stage your turtle is now. Howover, my hatchling res wasn't so lucky.

What you can do now is the general, don't let the water temperature fall behind the air temperature. Keep drafts away from the tank and do not use the AC. Keep the temperature a bit higher than usual.
Because your turtle currently is getting alot of medication and treatments, inability to submerge is normal. The medications gets rid of the gut flora which aids the digestion. The gas is probably why he is unable to sink to the bottom.

27 Turtles. 6 Tortoises.
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JessicaTS
 
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Post Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:09 pm   

It is possible, if an infection/RI cannot be completely knocked out of the system for whatever reason, for the condition to become chronic, which is what you could be seeing. I'm assuming that where you are is warm and that in your search for something to cure the infection (and from reading info on this site) that you're doing everything possible to keep the temps appropriate for an ill turtle. While stressful for the turtle, I do know of people who have done this to this sick turtles and they have recovered (I have no idea of those that have been unsuccessful, though). If you choose to try this, though, be very careful to allow your turtle to periodically get hydrated and don't let the air become too dry (it will make breathing more difficult).

Is your turtle eating? If not, it's probably due to the medication. Baytril, especially, can cause them to lose their appetite while on it.

Do you have any aquariums (tourist sites), zoos, places of that nature that you could contact. If you do, perhaps someone there could guide you.
"You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." -Antoine de Saint Exupery-
marisa
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Post Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:54 am   

Jessica, thanks, that's encouraging. We had thought the medicaton might be creating symptoms now, but couldn't find any evidence for it elsewhere. Digestive gases also explain the bubbles we've seen coming from her tail now and then. :) What about the mucus, though? There are definitely transparent strings of it in and around the mouth. Is it possible that antibiotic entering the lungs is causing her immune system to react and produce mucus? The medicine is a foreign substance after all, and there was at least one forum mention elsewhere that oral AB in the lungs could make RI worse. We're thinking now the best thing might be to start slowly cutting back on the meds.

Marisa, thanks, sounds like we're doing it right. The puddle of water (much too shallow for a heater) she has is 82 and the air is a gradiant from low 80's to mid 90's. She gets a 40 min swim twice a day, and already seems well adjusted. She's never stopped eating, although sometimes only a small amount and with lots of encouragement. Then yesterday morning, after the first dry night, she ate NINE pellets. That's 3x the size of her head, but we didn't have the heart to cut her off.

Thanks also for everyone's best wishes. They are appreciated.
diyabolo
 
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Post Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:14 pm   RI

As for Baytril I got that once for an ear infection from scuba diving and it made me sick. Wonder what its doin to that little turtles tummy. Any medications u need? By the way for someone from amman you speak better English than most people on this forum. Congrats. Any chance your gonna take a pic of the little guy.
staman
 
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Post Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:43 am   

Update: Taking JessicaTS's post into consideration about floating being a normal side effect, and the fact that the medication wasn't causing any improvement, we decided to take a risk and stop the drugs. It's been almost 36 hours now, and so far she's doing just as well as she was before. We tried to ease back the meds last week, but as soon as we saw mucus and a little mouth breathing we panicked and started them again. This time we just waited it out, and sure enough it didn't last long. She still drools mucus, especially while sleeping, but other than that and the floating she acts like a normal RES. We moved her back to warm shallow water, and she's getting skittish again, running away instead of just sitting and staring back up at us. We're keeping a close eye out for danger signs though.

We did find out about an animal rescue center about 30 mins away. The vet won't be in until tomorrow, but anyway we'd be reluctant to take her on a 30 min drive at this point.

Staman - thanks. "We" are one American writer/editor and one Jordanian English Lit PhD with scholarly publications, so language is what pays our bills. :) About the drugs, they are all actually much cheaper and easier to get here than in the US. Isn't "Baytril" a Veterinary-only brand name of ciprofloxacin -- so did you go to a vet for your ear infection? :) Just kidding -- yes, we were told it's a very strong antibiotic.

Thanks, everyone. We'll keep updating, but in the meantime anyone who has advice, please keep it coming.
diyabolo
 
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Post Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:06 pm   RI

It sounds like that turtle has been to hell and back in the last three weeks. I would seriously think about about the 30 minute car ride. What else can you do at this point?

When you got your turtle initially was it healthy? If so how long was he ok before he got sick? Im wondering if he was sick before you even got him and it just manifested during that time. RI can infect a turtle but sometimes it won't show signs for over a month until it's health rapidly declines. Sound familiar? Where did you get the turtle from...
staman
 
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Post Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:41 pm   

Staman - She's from an aquarium store and was probably healthy at first. We had to leave her for a week with someone when while we traveled outside the country and her basking bulb burned out -- then the spare burned out, too -- so she got too cold for a couple of days. Both the initial onset and the later relapse also came while she was housed with our two Reeves turtles, who probably carry some bacteria that is harmless to them but dangerous to RES. So best guess is one or both of those two factors.

As for the ride -- 30 minutes without heating doesn't sound like a good trade off for "Yes, it's RI." Only if there's a good chance she could take a shot, which seems unlikely given that her muscles are hardly thicker than a needle.

Anyway, it's looking good: 60 hours now without meds and she's improving. There's less and less mucus each night and although she still floats it's easier for her to get to the bottom. Seems like the oral antibiotic really was making her miserable and mimicking some of the same symptoms of pneumonia - mucus and tilted floating. The antibiotics definitely saved her from the brink of death more than once, but after that it's hard to know where the line was between helping and hurting. We're still watching her 24/7.

There are pictures here from when we first got her: http://photos.yahoo.com/philip_lentz/ (She's Taxi) Poor thing hasn't been able to live in a real tank yet -- can't wait to get her into one when she's well...

Thank you everyone.
diyabolo
 
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Post Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:03 pm   

Your turt back to normal now?
staman
 
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Post Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:18 pm   

Thanks for asking -- we didn't want to jinx anything by updating too early. :) After more than a week without meds, she's doing well. She still can't sink properly, and still produces long strings of mucus from her mouth, but her behavior is completely normal. She has lots of energy, she basks, she swims, she's shy again instead of being indifferent to us, and she eats pellets like a monster. We catch her opening her mouth while basking sometimes, but it looks different from when she was gasping; it's not rhythmic or desperate, so it seems to be just an above-water version of blowing bubbles, i.e. trying to expel mucus. We're hopeful she'll keep getting better, but if not and she winds up being sickly forever, we'll just keep her temps up and be extra careful with her. And after this, we never planned to mix her with any other turts anyway.

Thanks to all for the advice and support.
diyabolo
 
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Post Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:21 pm   

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for her. The healthy appetite is really a positive sign. :)
"You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." -Antoine de Saint Exupery-
marisa
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Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:08 am   She didn't make it...

After a couple of weeks of stability, the mucus became too much for Taxi and she started choking and gasping for air. We started antibiotics again and drytanked her, but unfortunately she didn't make it through her second night. A few days before she died, we had also discovered the beginnings of mouth rot on the inside of her lower jaw, so she had real problems. We miss her tons, but at least she won't suffer anymore. Even if she had survived, it seems like she would have had a constant battle to stay healthy. She was a real trooper. Even while she was sick, she seemed to enjoy life. We buried her in a nice little flower pot by the window.

Thanks all for your support.
diyabolo
 
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